Interview: Frankly Speaking: Two Ambassadors Discuss Armenian Question: Yüksel Söylemez - Ömer E. Lütem

The Armenian question arises from an interpretation of a historical event says retired Ambassador Ömer Lütem in an interview with Ambassador (Rtd.) Yüksel Söylemez on Armenian question.

Lütem stated that Armenian activists claim that the relocation of the Armenians in 1915 – 1916 constitutes the crime genocide or had genocidal effects on the Armenian population.

“Turkish historians and writers on their part consider that the relocation did not intend to destroy the Armenians on the contrary, it intended to protect them and remove them from the war zones for their own security and also for the security of the Ottoman forces. I am convinced that there is enough evidence to show that the Ottoman government did not intend to destroy the Armenian civilians,“ according to Lütem.

Here is the full text of the interview of two ambassadors:

Ambassador (Rtd.) Yüksel Söylemez interviews Ambassador Ömer Lütem (Rtd.), Director of Institute for Armenian Research.

SÖYLEMEZ: The Armenian issue for Turkey has an ever-increasing significance. Let me congratulate the Center For Eurasian Strategic Studies on the establishment of the “ Institute For Armenian Research” under your leadership. I understand you became operational in April 2001 and intend to promote scientific research on Armenia, Armenians and the Armenian issue.

LÜTEM: That is correct we have already published two issues of our quarterly. It is a bilingual journal entitled  “Ermeni Ara?t?rmalar?/Armenian Studies”. We also plan to publish a number of books on the related subjects.

SÖYLEMEZ: Do you have a website?

LÜTEM: Yes our website is ( www.eraren.org). It contains information about our activities and publications, which we update regularly.

SÖYLEMEZ: Your Institute is busy organizing several scholarly meetings, seminars and panels on Armenian related matters, isn’t it?

LÜTEM: Yes our members are also interested in participating at all kinds of meetings, conferences and panels on the subject, when we are invited. Our Institute intends to collect a library of books on Armenians, Armenia and related issues. We began to collect microfilms for our archives on the Armenian issue.

SÖYLEMEZ: How do you describe the Armenian conflict in a nutshell, for the Turks and the Armenians, who know little on the subject?

LÜTEM: The conflict arises from an interpretation of a historical event. Armenian activists claim that the relocation of the Armenians in 1915-1916 constitutes the crime genocide or had genocidal effects on the Armenian population. Turkish historians and writers on their part consider that the relocation did not intend to destroy the Armenians, on the contrary it intended to protect them and remove them from the war zones, for their own security and also for the security of the Ottoman forces. I am convinced that there is enough evidence to show that the Ottoman Government did not intend to destroy the Armenian civilians.

SÖLEMEZ: What is the definition of genocide then?

LÜTEM: According to the second article of the UN Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of Crime of Genocide, the definition of genocide is ‘acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious groups’. Firstly the Ottoman government at that time never intended to destroy the Armenians. Secondly relocation (or deportation) is not mentioned among the acts that constitute the genocide. Therefore the relocation of Armenians in 1915 does not fall within the definition of the crime of genocide.

SÖYLEMEZ: But why is the question still alive after nearly a century?

LÜTEM: It is not understandable that after 85 years those events should still be revoked as a major issue. The people who suffered are long dead. Their descendants probably have no intention to settle and live in Turkey. That’s why Armenian allegations concerning “genocide” is an excuse for some political ambitions and aspirations.

SÖYLEMEZ: What is the Armenian intention then?

LÜTEM: If one follows the Armenian media today and especially those of the Diaspora, one can observe the true intention not say of a design against Turkey. This consists of four stages of operation. In the first phase, they hope for the recognition of the so-called Armenian genocide by the international community. Recognition by the major powers and by international organizations. This seems to be the main aim. In the second phase, the intension is that Turkey should recognize the Armenian “genocide” under the pressure of leading countries like the United States. In the third phase, Turkey should compensate the victims of the “genocide” or their inheritors. In the final phase, in order to revive President Wilson’s Great Armenia project, Turkey should give away territory to Armenia from Eastern Anatolia. 

SÖYLEMEZ: Do the Armenians really believe in such a fallacy?

LÜTEM: It seems that most of them believe in it. Under a permanent brainwashing unfortunately it is possible. For them Turkey should accept that genocide was perpetrated against the Armenians and apologize. Some ask for compensation or indemnity for the “victims” or to their relatives. But I believe few Armenians believe that Eastern Anatolia should or could be given to Armenia in any realistic scenario.

SÖYLEMEZ: Why did the French parliament pass the Armenian law?

LÜTEM: Turkish public opinion refuse that act of genocide had ever happened against the Armenians. We consider that genocide claim is an insult to us. The reaction against the French law, which recognized the Armenian genocide, although not mentioning Turkey or Turks, was so strong that the French almost regretted for having adopted it. It is an impossible proposition to hope that one day Turkey will recognize Armenian genocide claim. This fact is extremely important. There will be no resolution of the conflict, unless Armenians drop “genocide” claim.

SÖYLEMEZ: Why did the Armenians resort to terrorism some years back by killing fellow diplomats?

LÜTEM: The aim was to publicize the Armenian claims. 34 Turkish diplomats and Turkish officials were murdered in foreign countries, between 1973 and 1985. They had done nothing against their murderers. The killer and victim never met before or knew each other. They were assassinated because they were Turks. The assassins attacked the representative symbols of the Turkish state. These were all racist attacks. In the Diaspora racist conviction does exist.

SÖYLEMEZ: The “trauma” excuse by the Diaspora Armenians?

LÜTEM: Their argument about trauma is important. They believe that it could lead even to manslaughter.

I think this kind of explanation is nothing but a demagogy. It has nothing to do with the truth. In fact a trauma can be experienced by people who witnessed tragic events. Trauma can only be personal. A negative feeling is also possible for their children. For the third generation, some sad stories maybe told from a distant past. Remember it was Armenians of the third generation who murdered Turkish diplomats. The second, the third and the coming fourth generation of the Diaspora has been subject to a continuous brainwashing for anti-Turkish propaganda was tought in Armenian schools, churches etc. This was racist, and immoral. It was a way to inculcate hate. To conserve Armenian national identity of the Diaspora members. Armenians in Western countries are subject to assimilation. There is a kind of trauma in the Armenian Diaspora it’s surely not an inherited but an artificially created one.

SÖYLEMEZ: How do you see the future of Turkish-Armenian relations?

LÜTEM: Turks and Armenians should realize that it’s in their interest to come to terms with each other. There is no irredentist feelings for the Turks. Therefore it’s easier for us to make peace with the Armenians.

As to the Armenians the problem is different. As long as the hate campaign for Turks is there, as the main element to underscore of the Armenian national identity, the Armenian Church, Armenian political parties and cultural institutions etc. will not favor or support peace drive with the Turks. This explains why the big majority of the Armenians of the Diaspora are so much against the “Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission”. They could not even imagine that reconciliation is a possibility between the Turks and Armenians.

SÖYLEMEZ: How to deal with the Armenian prejudice?

LÜTEM: It is obvious that to reconcile the Turks and the Armenians is an immense task. I think that the only possible way is to try to suppress the prejudices that most of the Armenians have for the Turks, is one should encourage every kind of contact between us and them, so that we get to know each other better. For instance last summer a group of American Armenian tourists came to Turkey. They were extremely skeptical at the beginning but they soon discovered that the Turks are pleasant, even congenial people with nothing against the Armenians. At the end of their tour the tourists admitted that they liked the Turks and Turkey to their amazement.

SÖYLEMEZ: How do you evaluate the “Reconciliation Commission”? Is there a chance of success for them?

LÜTEM: The “Turkish – Armenian Reconciliation Commission” is a very important step forward towards the resolution of the Turkish – Armenian conflict. It is for the first time that every aspect of Turkish – Armenian relations and problems could be discussed in details, except “genocide” claims among Turkish and Armenian intellectuals. I hope that the Commission can soon present some tangible results and advise accordingly to both governments. The events of 1915-1916 are too distant and buried in the past. Logically they should not hamper today’s Turkish – Armenian relations. I find that it was very appropriate for the commission not to discuss “genocide” claims, which could be taken up by historians. As to the possible chance of success of the Commission, I think that it much depends on its Armenian members. They should resist to a totally unjust but very strong criticism of some extremist Armenian circles and continue with good faith to discuss the issues with their Turkish colleagues.      

SÖYLEMEZ: What does history teach us?

LÜTEM: Turks and Armenians lived together for centuries. That is a fact. They share a common or similar culture. That is also a fact. That is the reason why I always thought that cooperation in the areas of culture and arts would be successful. Armenia is a “small” country, with limited resources. Armenia needs Turkey for its well being. To develop economic relations will help for a better understanding between our peoples and even help to the improvement of political relations.

SÖYLEMEZ: So, You are proposing to increase contacts in bilateral relations with Armenians, be it in Diaspora or in Armenia. But what about official relations? 

LÜTEM: Turkey is one of the first countries that recognized Armenian independence. This was an expression of a good will towards that new state. But it was not possible for Turkey to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia until now.

SÖYLEMEZ: What is the obstacle against recognition?

LÜTEM: Let me explain Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of independence considers Eastern Turkey as Western Armenia and Article 13 of the Armenian Constitution states that Armenia’s coat of arms is Mount Ararat, which is not in Armenia but in Turkey. During the negotiations on diplomatic relations, Armenia refused then and now to recognize officially the territorial integrity of Turkey. Armenia, in conformity with the article 11 of its Declaration of Independence, tried to win international recognition for the Armenian genocide claim.

SÖYLEMEZ: Then there is the Armenian occupation of Nagorno Karabagh?

LÜTEM: Yes. This is another obstacle. Armenia occupied Nagorno Karabagh, which was Azerbaijani territory. This is against U.N. Security Council resolutions. Armenians caused an influx of about one million Azerbaijani Refugees, who continue to live in camps under very poor conditions. It is obvious that Armenia invaded Azerbaijan. That’s one of the reasons why Ankara refuses to establishing diplomatic relations with Yerevan.

Without a dramatic change in the Armenian policy on the territorial integrity of Turkey. Secondly the “genocide” claims and finally without the resolution of the Karabagh conflict, it will be nearly impossible to expect the establishment of diplomatic relations by Turkey with Armenia. On the other hand I would like to add that President Kocharian’s attitude against Turkey does not at all contribute to any positive solution to the existing problems between our two countries.

SÖYLEMEZ: I was under the impression that President Kocharian was very much in favour of establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey?

LÜTEM: He would like it very much indeed! For Armenia the establishment of diplomatic relations with Turkey means enormous political advantage. An outlet to the Blacksea as a landlocked country, it will encourage substantial increase in its economic relations. The problem is that Armenia is not ready to fulfill the conditions for establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey, as I mentioned. First to recognize the territorial integrity of Turkey, then to renounce “genocide” claim and to accept a just and balanced solution for Nagorno Karabagh.

SÖYLEMEZ: What about the Armenian Turks?

LÜTEM: They are loyal citizens of the Turkish Republic. They are part and parcel of the Turkish society. They have no problems with Turkish origin Turkish citizens. They play an important role in the economic, artistic and intellectual life of this country. We are proud of them. They have their own schools, churches, hospitals charities and Armenian newspapers. I wish them success and happiness in this country which is also theirs.

SÖYLEMEZ: Thank you Ömer bey.

LÜTEM: Thank you Yüksel bey.